LOOT BOXES ARE ILLEGAL? - Dude Soup Podcast #146

Dude Soup: LOOT BOXES ARE ILLEGAL? - Dude Soup Podcast #146

Get $25 off your first wine box by going to http://www.blueapron.com/soupwine
And
get 20% off your Mack Weldon order by going to http://www.mackweldon.com and use promo code "soup"


Today the gang tackles the controversy over video game loot boxes as well as:
4:10 - Vegas stories, Bro!
29:05 - An interview with real life video game attorney Ryan Morrison.
48:55 - Official Lawrence Brand Thoughtable: What is gambling really?
1:00:25 - Hard Nettin': Dyson Show vs Marble Olympics.


Want those joggers? http://bit.ly/fhmerch


SOURCES:
[Kotaku]
The Collapse Of Visceral's Ambitious Star Wars Game: https://kotaku.com/the-collapse-of-viscerals-ambitious-star-wars-game-1819916152
[GI.biz]
EA's Ultimate Team now worth $800 million annually: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-03-01-eas-ultimate-team-now-worth-USD800-million-annually
[Kotaku]
GameStop Offering Unlimited 6-Month Access To Preowned Games: https://kotaku.com/gamestop-offering-unlimited-6-month-access-to-preowned-1819957746
[Eurogamer]
Are loot boxes gambling? http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-11-are-loot-boxes-gambling
[Rock,
Paper, Shotgun] UK government responds to loot box questions: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/10/17/uk-government-responds-to-loot-box-questions-vaguely/
[PCGamer]
Behind the addictive psychology and seductive art of loot boxes: http://www.pcgamer.com/behind-the-addictive-psychology-and-seductive-art-of-loot-boxes/
[YouTube]
Stole my Cloud Song:


NET HARD:
The Dyson Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/DysonShow500
MarbleLympics
- https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMV8B1Q5lEEb5yR8Hqkbdhg


Follow us on Twitter: 


http://twitter.com/brucegreene
http://twitter.com/jameswillems
http://twitter.com/sirlarr
http://twitter.com/elysewillems

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Comments (54)

  • beastdude FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Rock god in training

    2 days ago

    Personally, loot boxes are not gambling as like they said you're still getting something when you purchase them, even if it's something you don't want. Halo 5 has a really good system with it's req cards where you can sell the ones you don't want ingame to gain credits that can be used to buy more req packs. The only downside in Halo 5 is that you can't trade cards with other players, but that's not a big deal. The cards are a little pay to win but the gameplay has managed to balance it out pretty well where you're not feeling like it's worthless to play if you're not spending tonnes of money. I'm sure other games have similar systems. The problem is that not all games have a balanced system.
    As for kids racking up huge bills that I say is 100% the parent's fault for not securing their financial details or screening what their kids are playing/doing. But I do agree that to combat this to make any game that has a loot box type system to have a warning and maybe even be age gated. I don't have a problem with a loot box type system as long as it doesn't affect gameplay (i.e makes the game pay to win).

  • SeronWhite FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    2 weeks ago

    I collect MTG (Magic The Gathering) cards and sell them online. I tend to spend about $20 on each set, unless there are cards that could go for very high prices and a lot of them within the set. I fully consider it gambling. Every time I pick up the packs I take a risk of getting nothing of value and not being able to sell the cards for much money. There have been times in which I lost money because the cards from the set were so bad. If the cards are crap then I can't sell them for good prices. The cards could have been incredible common or just plain garbage within the game's meta.   There have also been times in which I have made a lot of money. I manged to sell a card with in hours for $60 based on how powerful it was. I have gotten cards worth nearly up to $100 based on its abilities and the current meta of the game. The most I manged to make from a set was around $250ish, the least $5.


    As I said, that is fully gambling and if the boxes aren't properly regulated then there will be problems. One solution would be to make Loot Boxes have their own currency on every system that you can only buy in a physical store. That would help to keep kids from using their parents cards to buy an F ton of them.  They should also have the odds for every item and make it so that every 5th or so box be guaranteed to have an extremely rare item in it.  I also feel that the game industry should try to avoid the "Pay to Win" style of boxes. Those will most likely cause the most damage in a situation with legal action being taken against a game company.  I do not feel that we will see any kind of regulation from the biggest company that is making the Loot Boxes. EA could care less about their fans, developers, and anyone else as long as they make a cent. They said that in an interview. And I doubt that Steam is going to be pulling back on the boxes as well, though they might take more action against the trading sites, they won't get rid of the boxes until someone drops the hammer on them. 


  • VpstR FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    2 weeks ago

    first of all love the attorney, makes the topic very understandable. Second, makes me laugh hard when they closed the skype call you see immature fan art or something like that haha.

  • kimeechi FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    2 weeks ago

    Elyse looking fine

  • BQJmcF FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Another really interesting topic, and a good guest, thanks for the content!1

  • TheKarjee FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    It would be EA that got so THIRSTY for "quiche" it opened everyone eyes to the dark side of this practice, NO ONE gave a shit when Overwatch did it and this is just EA's reaction to another company's success. It is gambling and it isn't wrong what I think is wrong is making a game centred around it.

  • GeeseMcNottagoose FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    A part of me wants to take James' side on this. This IS America after all, the great libertarian experiment. It should be up to either an adult individual or a a child's parents to make sure abuse doesn't take place whether its with drugs, sex, gambling, whatever. The state has no place in our private lives.


    That being said, I'm not cool with all this loot box shit on a personally ethical level. I don't play many games anymore and the ones I do don't have loot boxes or micro-transactions at all. And If I had kids, I wouldn't let them play games like that either. It might be that gaming is "catching up," but I don't think that's a good thing. Our nation has worked so well for so long because liberty works so well only when combined with some moral fiber. Individuals are dumber and more hedonistic than ever before, and the rapid increase in federal power and bureaucracy directly reflects that. It's hard to say, "sure here's all the freedom you can handle" when people constantly prove that they have no sense of personal responsibility.


    And I'm not saying game developers should be held accountable for the actions of irresponsible individuals, It'd just be nice if gaming never got around to feeding into the downward loop we seem to be stuck in right now.

  • Yerjerbs FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    I'm slightly bothered by the persistent emphasis on child exploitation.  Is it worth saying that there is no difference in a kid blowing a large sum of money on a loot boxes versus an adult?  In a "James perspective" of psychology, we're all susceptible to enabling behavior, and that's why we're here discussing this.  Maybe it wouldn't be a discussion 40 years ago, and I'm not saying this to be cynical, but adult behaviors are only slightly more responsible than children's, and still incur the same amount of damage, whether the ability to consent is there or not.  The bottom line is that businesses don't see the difference.  They treat kids like kids, and they treat adults like kids.  And we shouldn't be surprised to find that both kids and adults will respond exactly the same way.  Whatever demographic manipulation businesses can utilize to make profit is their direction.  Humans instinctively, feriously thrive on impulses, and anyone with power know that's the button to push.  Our direction in combating this is still the same, but the moral line should not be drawn at a specific age.

  • Suzuki7Seas FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Regulating loot boxes in video games was to be expected just look at Japan gacha video games. I just wish SQEX had to post the rates for 5* units/equipment in their games in the Global version like they do for the Japan version. Because sometimes it feels like its fucking rigged.

  • GenesisJFAP FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    This is the second time I've heard the story of Bruce staying at hotels for conventions and them being destroyed the second year on this podcast.  It was Stardust, Imperial Palace, and the Sahara.


    edit: it was on a GTA Gameplay 'WIN A (crappy) PRIZE'. Love you Papa Bruce, even if you retell stories!

  • jeddywa FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Dyson was whatever. I feel like he got the pity vote every time.  I get it, it's the charming trying spirit, but he lasted too long.  I'm also disappointed with his contender this week.  I feel like MarbleLympics is well known and isn't necessarily netting hard, but netting well.  Step your game up, Funhaus.  Or else.

  • GearsGuy1945 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Elyse's hair made her look like she belonged in a Revlon commercial.  It was all thrown around in a organizationally crazed way.

  • wbragg87 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    James... Is... Right.... The whole first part of this video... James is right... Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that most of humanity is ignorant of these facts and realizations... I mean, honestly... It's just logical if you really attempt to understand humans as a whole, he's right on the money.

    • lootsorrow FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      3 weeks ago

      James' argument that gambling is part of the human psyche so therefore it's okay and shouldn't be regulated or controlled by laws? Guess what else is a natural part of the human psyche? Rape. And murder. And theft.

    • wbragg87 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      3 weeks ago

      No, not that it shouldn't be regulated or controlled by laws, but that it is a natural part of what people WANT to do. My opinion rests somewhere between his and Bruce's. Sadly, it's not a perfect world and people won't educate their kids about gambling, or the want to gamble will overcome their better sense. We all gamble from time to time, however, the reality is we shouldn't need rules to tell you when you've gambled enough... That's on you. We hold everyone's hand, but no one wants to take responsibility for their actions... They told you what you could get out of that box, and you bought it anyway, because you couldn't restrain yourself.... 

      TL;DR, My opinion is between James' and Bruce's, and if people would just act right, we wouldn't need the regulations, but they won't... So, it doesn't really matter.

    • RtisticXplosions FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      3 weeks ago

      Sorry, but loot boxes specifically DON'T tell you what you'll get out of the box. At least the ones I have an issue with don't. Overwatch is one of the ones I dislike most because they only reveal things like they've double the chance of a certain tier of item. If it went from 0.01% to 0.02%, who cares? Just tell an impartial party those percentages, like the attorney suggested, so they can be like "this is kind of a really bad deal for consumers" if it is.


      Hell, with everyone up in arms over Shadow of War recently, I actually postponed judgement until I played the game, and realised that they're pretty transparent, not too pushy and they have done a decent job of balancing outside of that. So I'm completely okay with the way they're handled in that game. It's only when it comes to Overwatch and Battlefront 2 and that type of implementation that I start having issues.

    • wbragg87 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      3 weeks ago

      See, I don't have a problem with any game that has cosmetic gear for sale, especially if it can be acquired through in-game means. Like Overwatch, at least I could unlock all of the skins if I played enough during events, but I can see how it becomes more pressing that the events only last so long and it can take a while to get loot boxes through levels.

  • SailorVe FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold ☾❤☀

    3 weeks ago

    I love kingdom hearts but read out it sounds soooo awful lmao 

  • AusKarMa FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    I find one point in the attorneys point completely troublesome and that is that he stated that the crappy baseball cards you get still have meaning and value to you but not the other stuff you get in the loot boxes. Im sorry but if loot boxes are gambling so are baseball cards. You cant say those crap baseball cards have value and not the other stuff from the loot boxes, it just doesn't make sense and then he brings up emotional value of the cards.

  • Thebluerayxx FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Ray

    3 weeks ago

    Loot boxes aren't gambling, and having a loot box system isn't bad. The problem is when a game is crafted to push a player to buy loot boxes, at that point i would say the company is committing Fraud, selling a "broken" or "incomplete" product knowing they will have to pay to fix it. Like if someone sold you a car with a repair warranty for their shop, but the car has problems they know about so you will use the warranty up and end up staying and paying out the nose.

  • Fuggak FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    I think the analogy James was looking for was Baseball cards = "Antiques" vs Loot Boxes = "Gambling".  If thats what you meant, I agree man.

  • s3bast1an FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Unique Mix

    3 weeks ago

    This has to be the most interesting and informative dude soup ever, i loved it, i feel like such a better informed consumer, thank you Lawrence for making this podcast possible.

  • jameshenry FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    I work at a gambling establishment in the UK, and we have a mandate to allow customers to self exclude, for periods of either 6 or 12 months. 


    At 44:00 or so, Lawyerman is talking about the credibility in court needed by a company, to say they did their due-diligence in preventing problem gambling. 


    Every gambling establishment in the UK follows this system, and they must collaborate together to prevent people who have self excluded from gambling anywhere, from getting their hands on more opportunities to gamble. 


    So that's the sort of bar that mobile and in-game gambling has to meet if it is ruled to legally be gambling.

  • rhn94 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    the real solution is that we must send the kids to a methadone clinic so that they don't get hooked to gambling

  • Jordy. FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Jordy

    3 weeks ago

    Magic: The Gathering actually worried about being considered gambling for a while: there used to be 'ante' cards, which would give you some very powerful effects at the risk of losing cards to the other player. For example, an ante card would let you draw seven cards, but you'd have to put the seventh card up for ante. If you lost you'd have to give that card to your opponent.

    To me this seems more like steroids than gambling, and if I think of it that way I can more easily form an opinion on it. Ante, like steroids, feels like it's rewarding players willing to take risks rather than those willing to practice and become good. Ante would be the same as giving all the best weapons to just one class. Unless you have a steroid league, you're unbalancing the game. 

  • AmiralPatate FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    I have two gripes with lootboxes.


    The first is, at the surface layer, lootboxes are functionally slot machines without regulation. You pay a buck to have a go at it, it does a little song and dance, and then you get random crap. Slot machines I say. There is no transparency, no control, and that's really bad. At the very least, the odds should be advertised in game and verifiable.


    The second is a deeper issue. Lootboxes lock content you already paid for. I don't like unlocking stuff I paid for anymore. If people want their fake sense of progression and watch XP bars fill over time or letting RNGesus take the wheel, power to them, but what I want for me is a button that said "click here to unlock all the shit right fucking now". Especially in multiplayer games. But that's another discussion.


    I'll add that I have no problems with arbitrary locks (whether it's a timer/bar filling up, a random number generator or alleged skill/achievements) on content that isn't actually gameplay-relevant, like skins, hats and such. I think cosmetic items are nothing more than showing your dick to the world, so it's fine if you actually have to earn a bigger one.


    On a sidebar, good guest, and very educational discussion. I suppose I heard the same argument "you can't redeem for money therefore not gambling", I'm glad to hear that this argument does hold so much. I also really hope the lootbox conversation makes it to the EU, and that, unlike glyphosate, something is done about it. Also, same model of headset than me.

  • Antimattergizmo FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Finally a channel they highlight on Hard Nettin' that I've already been a sub to for a while. It's really neat how you can reduce team and sports support and fanbases to a colour of marble you identify with.


    By the way the channel was original just vids of large marble machines that cycle hundreds of marbles through loops of courses, then he tried doing marble races and got a lot of support from viewers to do the commentary and repeat the Marble'lympics multiple times through the year.

  • tobes231 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Lawrence Teeth is the company we truly need.

  • lounamaa FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Can't really get on board with the argument that we shouldn't regulate anything, just because people will try to do bad shit (or shit that's bad for them) regardless.


    Just as an example, if regulation had no effect, penalizing drunk driving would be meaningless. Everyone still has the option of getting wasted and jumping behind the wheel. However, the threat of punishment makes you at least think twice about doing so. You might be drunk as hell and still (or therefore) feel like you're the best driver in the world, but you have to take into account that there are consequences to your potential actions that are beyond your control (i.e. you might get pulled over and thrown in jail or whatever).


    If you leave it up to people to be excellent to themselves and to one another and choose to err on the side of not regulating anything, you're gonna have a bad time.

  • A_Suarez

    3 weeks ago

    How can children buy loot boxes and shit like that if banks don't give you credit/debit cards unless you're 18?

    • charlie_driver FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold hiiiiiialaska

      3 weeks ago

      "hey Mommy can I pay for Xbox live?" 

      "Sure sweety" 

      *Either intentionally saves card on Xbox or doesn't realize that Xbox makes that default card*

    • honkysachmo FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Noah

      3 weeks ago

      No amount of labeling or regulation can help being a worthless parent 

    • RtisticXplosions FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      3 weeks ago

      Hey Noah, out of curiosity, are you a parent? How exactly do you ensure your kids do not break rules ever? I'm just curious cos you seem to dole out the title of "worthless parent" very freely, so I'm assuming you have a lot of experience/expertise in the area.

    • honkysachmo FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Noah

      3 weeks ago

      I'm almost certain it is worthless parenting if you can't ensure your child won't spend your money without your permission what in the hell, how is that not a normal thing that can be determined by any sane individual regardless of whether you have a child or not lmfao 

  • TurnerBurn FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Funnier in editing.

    3 weeks ago

    How in the bad words are a bunch of dudes who make jokes about Disney Princesses being fat better journalists then most journalists? Example. It's both funny and frustrating to me that the crew, who actively reject the title of journalist or openly mock it (as Lawrence has done on the past 2 podcasts), do better research then most of the people in major media outlets. Can I get these guys to report on everything please?

    #RealNews #GetWoke #BruceGreeneForPresident #ClicktheNaziButton

    • AusKarMa FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      3 weeks ago

      You do realise that he just read a bunch of other articles right? He clearly states that he read a kotaku article to find a lot of this information.

    • TurnerBurn FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Funnier in editing.

      3 weeks ago

      That's what journalism is, reading from credible sources and presenting that information (preferably in a non-biased way). Also, they didn't "just read a bunch of other articles", he also found a credible source with experience in this field to present the legal side of the equation. And they gang stayed pretty objective on the issue. Yes, there was a fair amount of editorializing. However, they aren't journalists as they've repeatedly stated. As Bruce described their work at Inside Gaming "It's infotainment with journalistic standards." I personally enjoy listening to them for their depth of research, intelligent discussion, and dare I say it, Fair and Balanced approach to topics.

  • 1dragon1 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Where is the Louisiana Jewish lawyer Joel when you need him.

  • scoobasteeve FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Bruce Reads would make a fantastic regular segment

    • charlie_driver FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold hiiiiiialaska

      3 weeks ago

      Yes lol when I realized he was reading the kingdom hearts titles I was dying 

  • beedle246 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Don't be Cody Be Haggar

    3 weeks ago

    God damn, Kingdom Hearts is just pure.......I can't even think of the right thing to say but like James said how the hell can people still seriously enjoy that stuff

  • memeboymatt FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    MarbleLympics is one of my absolutely favourite things. 

  • honkysachmo FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Noah

    3 weeks ago

    Half the U.S. population is at or near the poverty level, I can't see how the take "child gambling from video games is a public issue" could be seen as anything but insane, let alone a viable platform for a politician of any orientation to run on. 

    • charlie_driver FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold hiiiiiialaska

      3 weeks ago

      Im really confused with what you're saying? Can you please go in a bit more details? Not tryna be mean or anything but I don't really understand what you're saying?? 

    • honkysachmo FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Noah

      3 weeks ago

      @charlie_driver The entire discussion comes to a head when they call the attorney and he determines that with the state of things, lootboxes would be determined as gambling by most judges in the U.S. Then the next point they hit is "what needs to change, vote for someone that runs on a platform of regulating them?" Like, are you serious? The cognitive dissonance required to think that any politician from any spectrum would try to have "regulate gambling in video games" as something in their itinerary comes from only seeing the world through video games, a luxury hobby, that half the people in our country can't afford. It's not a relevant discussion nor is it even remotely realistic to view it as a political, social, or public health issue, when there's a city in Michigan that still doesn't have clean fucking tap water, and two of our most populated states just got fucked up by the biggest storms we've ever seen. My main point is that I wish Adam would have been here to provide his usual "millions of people are starving and shitting into their own drinking water while we're here making money talking about plastic fun things" approach, because this conversation severely needed it. 

    • RtisticXplosions FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      3 weeks ago

      I think he meant that eventually a politician will say they want to address this issue, among others, when they get elected. And you should support them if and when that happens, unless you disagree with them on other stuff, of course. I think that that is entirely plausible. Until then, he mentioned that you should contact your local governors to let them know this is a concern to you.

    • honkysachmo FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold Noah

      3 weeks ago

      Except, thats not at all plausible, the world is literally on fire with way bigger problems both domestically and globally, which is my entire point. Broaden your scope beyond video games. 

  • cartmicah FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    this was a great episode. i loved the interview.

  • vibroblade FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Regardless of whether or not you consider loot boxes gambling, I don't see how anyone can look at the comparison between card packs and loot boxes and not come to the conclusion that they are one in the same within the context of this conversation. Either both ARE gambling, or NEITHER are. The idea that people buying card packs aren't expecting or hoping to get something rare or valuable is blatantly false. I remember as a kid buying an entire case of Yu-Gi-Oh cards hoping to get a few pieces of Exodia. I remember as a teen buying packs and packs of Heroclix and DnD miniatures hoping to get the rares from the new sets. How can anyone looking at this objectively suggest that there's any difference in expectation/reward when buying $50 worth of loot boxes with the hope of opening a specific skin? You can't make the argument that people are happy enough with generic trading cards to justify a return on value and then turn around and say voice-lines in Overwatch can't serve the same purpose. Just because YOU don't value them doesn't mean that they don't hold value. Value is entirely subjective, which is WHY it's left up to judges in the first place.

    • RtisticXplosions FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      3 weeks ago

      Here's where the difference lies to me, as someone who was into Yu-Gi-Oh and other card collecting stuff in the past. Even when I bought a buncha packs, I usually got a card or two per pack that I used in my deck, or one of my decks. Loot boxes tend to not work that way. You can get a skin/voice lines that you never use. Therefore they serve no purpose and have no value. With cards, even if you don't like em, you can trade them to friends, or develop some sort of use for them.


      That's why I only ever bought one bundle of loot boxes from OW. I wanted to be a Mercy main since no one was going supp, and spent £50 to just barely be able to get all the stuff I wanted for her (cos lord knows I got like two mercy things in those boxes). This was just before the Halloween event so that tilted me even harder. I'm glad I had that experience cos since then I was like, screw it, if I'm gonna spend money on a game, it'll be one where I can pick and choose what I buy with specific prices. I miss the days when class MT's were controversial, instead of lottery based MT's,

  • wolfeborne FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    Yet again the promo code for mack weldon doesn't work.


    • sirlarr FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      2 weeks ago

      Crap, really? I'll raise the alarm.


      Is it just not giving you the discount?

    • wolfeborne FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

      2 weeks ago

      Soup, Promo code says expired. I forget the other recent one that didn't work. I want to say it was filmhaus. Also thanks for reading these.

  • PenGuinn207 FIRST Member Star(s) Indication of membership status - One star is a FIRST member, two stars is Double Gold

    3 weeks ago

    AM I THE FIRST COMMENT????? MY EVENING HAS BEEN MADE! Love you guys <3 - Paris